AILSA CHANG, HOST:
Ari, tonight, you're going to get to see at the DNC what will essentially be the start of President Biden's farewell tour, right?
ARI SHAPIRO, HOST:
It's true. Emotions here are high. Some people told me they expect to shed tears as they see President Biden give this speech passing the torch to Kamala Harris in a campaign that they for a long time believed he was going to be running.
CHANG: Well, earlier today, I did have a chance to speak with one of the architects of President Biden's 2020 and 2024 campaigns, Anita Dunn. She stepped down from her post as senior White House adviser earlier this month to join Future Forward. That's a massive political action committee behind the Kamala Harris campaign. And Dunn is also there in Chicago at the DNC, and I started by asking her about that June 27 debate between Biden and Trump, the moment that, of course, largely triggered this political earthquake within the Democratic Party, which eventually led to Vice President Harris becoming the party's presidential nominee. And I asked Anita Dunn, in hindsight, did she have any regrets about going through with that earlier-than-usual debate?
ANITA DUNN: You know, in campaigns, you make decisions based on the information you have at the time. And the reality is that, you know, we had the debate. It didn't go well. The president felt that he could continue as a candidate. He made his strongest case for it and ultimately decided that it was in the best interest of his party and in the best interest of the nation to step aside and endorse Vice President Harris. And what I'm focused on, what he is focused on, I think what this party is focused on this week is electing her and making her case to the American public.
CHANG: I understand that President Biden is focused on getting Vice President Harris elected as the next president. But let me ask you about the tension here. Vice President Harris is being touted by your party as the change candidate, right? So how helpful is it to paint Harris as Biden's political heir in this moment if she's supposed to represent change?
DUNN: I don't think she's being painted as his political heir. He clearly is supporting her, and she has been an integral...
CHANG: I mean, he chose her. He urged for people to support her as the next Democratic nominee for president.
DUNN: He did, but it's still a democratic process, and people could have chosen others. But the reality is that there was no one who was as qualified, as ready to be president as she was. It's why he picked her in 2020 to be vice president, and it's why he supported her in 2024. She is clearly going to go out and make her own case for her own candidacy, as we've seen in the last 29 days. So I don't think anyone believes that she is simply running as his political heir. But there's no question...
CHANG: But the other side in this election has been characterizing Harris' ascension as the Democratic presidential nominee as a coup. And there are some people in your party who felt that there was a bit of a rush to anoint her. So how do you convince voters out there who may still be skeptical that this process was fair?
DUNN: You know, these are elections. They're not coronations. These aren't hereditary offices. She knows you've got to go out there and you've got to make the case. That is what she is doing.
CHANG: OK. Well, part of making that case is going to be about the economy. That is one of Harris' toughest challenges in this campaign. Less than a quarter of Americans tell Gallop as of July that the economy was excellent or good, which is actually lower than in March. And it seems like these pessimistic views of the economy are pretty ingrained at this time. How does Kamala Harris turn that around to convince voters to feel better about the economy?
DUNN: I think what Kamala Harris needs to do is she needs to convince voters that she is the right leader to move this economy forward in a way that grows the middle class and grow the economy by growing the middle class. People are going to be asked to choose. They're going to be asked to choose between Kamala Harris, who has a clear policy agenda that puts working middle class families first, and Donald Trump, who in his four years as president and who as a candidate has made it clear that he is going to put the people at the tip of the pyramid ahead of everybody else.
CHANG: Well, does Harris...
DUNN: But elections are about choices. They're not referendums. They are about choices. And so what she needs to do is she needs to go out there, and she needs to make it clear what the difference is. And I think that she began that process Friday with a very strong set of policy initiative.
CHANG: Well, let's talk about last Friday because she did lay out some of her economic ideas. But most of her specific policy ideas on the economy and many other domestic and foreign policies have not been spelled out. Is that just because there hasn't been much time in the Harris campaign to outline specifics or is it some kind of strategy to keep things still a bit vague?
DUNN: You know, she hasn't had a lot of time to outline specifics. She became the candidate. She needed to lock down the nomination. She needed to pick a vice president. And she's going into this convention. And that's a very compressed campaign for something that normally rolls out over a number of months. But I think, again, as you saw on Friday, she has begun this process of going out to the American people...
CHANG: She's begun, but at what point are voters entitled to know more about what they're going to get if they vote for her?
DUNN: Well, I think voters will continue to know more. I think that it is an ongoing process. I think you'll hear more from her this week at the convention. And coming out of the convention, you'll hear still more. But let's go and look again at the contrast here because Donald Trump and the extreme MAGA wing of the Republican Party that he leads have started to put out their policy proposal, you know, Trump's Project 2025, which he, of course, now disavows. It is an agenda that the American people are going to reject. It's why Trump is pretending he's never heard of it.
CHANG: Well, before I let you go, I want to ask you just how you're feeling personally. You have been a long, long-time advisor to President Biden. What does it feel like for you to be switching gears and helping Vice President Kamala Harris become the next president of the United States?
DUNN: You know, I was there when the president made the decision to pick her for vice president and have been part of an administration where she has been an excellent vice president and a great partner for him and a leader in her own right. So I've always been a Kamala Harris fan. And I think it's exciting and energizing for this party. And, you know, we're in Chicago, and it feels like we're about to make history again out here.
CHANG: Former White House senior adviser Anita Dunn. Thank you so much for your time today.
DUNN: Oh, thank you for having me on. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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